How to Make Leaving the House Less of a Battle with Daniel Katz, Psy.D.
How to Make Leaving the House Less of a Battle with Daniel Katz, Psy.D.
Have you ever told your child, “It's time to go,” only to discover 10 minutes later that they're still playing, their shoes are nowhere to be found, and you're no closer to leaving the house?
Maybe you've reminded them to get dressed five times. Maybe their backpack is sitting by the door, but they're suddenly very interested in building an elaborate world with their stuffed animals.
And somehow, a task that should take five minutes has turned into a 30-minute ordeal.
If this sounds familiar, you're definitely not alone.
As a child psychologist and a parent, I know how frustrating these moments can be. We have places to be, schedules to follow, and things that need to happen. Meanwhile, our kids seem completely uninterested in our carefully organized plans.
But what if the problem isn't that your child doesn't want to cooperate?
What if they simply don't understand all the steps involved in getting ready?
In this episode of Educated Parent, I talked with psychologist Daniel Katz, Psy.D., founder of Houston Therapy, about how we can help children develop the thinking skills they need to manage everyday tasks.
His approach offers a different way to think about child behavior, improve communication with children, and use positive parenting techniques to make your morning routine for kids less stressful.
And the best part? You don't need a complicated reward chart or an elaborate new system to get started.
Why Is Getting Kids Out the Door So Hard?
Think about everything you do before leaving the house.
You check the time.
You think about where you're going.
You consider the weather.
You make sure everyone has what they need.
You pack lunches, water bottles, and backpacks.
You remember the shoes.
And you mentally calculate how much time you have left before you're late.
For adults, much of this happens automatically. We've practiced these routines for years, so we barely notice how many individual decisions we're making.
For young children, it's a completely different experience.
They're still learning how to plan, organize, remember instructions, and move from one task to another.
These abilities are part of what psychologists call executive functioning skills.
What Are Executive Functioning Skills?
Executive functioning refers to the mental processes that help us organize our behavior and accomplish goals.
These skills help us:
Remember what we need to do
Organize tasks into manageable steps
Shift attention from one activity to another
Stay focused despite distractions
Think ahead about what comes next
Adjust our plans when something changes
Young children are still developing these abilities.
And children with ADHD or other executive functioning difficulties may find these tasks especially challenging.
So when you tell your child to “go get ready,” you're asking them to complete a process that may be much more complicated than you realize.
Your Child Might Not Be Trying to Make You Late
One of my favorite moments in this conversation was hearing Daniel describe the two-year battle his family had over shoes.
Every time they needed to leave, there was a problem.
The shoes felt weird.
They were too cold.
They were too hot.
Something was always wrong.
Daniel eventually wondered whether the shoes represented something bigger.
Putting them on meant leaving the safety and predictability of home.
Maybe the battle wasn't entirely about footwear.
That's an important reminder when we're trying to understand child behavior.
Sometimes kids resist because they're anxious about a transition.
Sometimes they don't remember all the steps.
Sometimes they're completely absorbed in something more interesting.
And sometimes they're simply having a hard time shifting their attention.
In my own house, I've experienced the challenge of trying to interrupt an elaborate imaginary battle involving stuffed animals.
From my perspective, we need to leave.
From my child's perspective, there's a very important adventure happening.
I can understand why packing a water bottle doesn't seem nearly as exciting.
The Missing Skill: Thinking About Thinking
Daniel introduced an idea called mentalizing.
In psychology, mentalizing involves understanding our own mental processes and considering what may be happening in someone else's mind.
In this conversation, we focused on a practical application: helping children understand the thought processes behind everyday tasks.
Think about it.
When you're packing a lunch, you might automatically remember that it's hot outside and decide to add an extra ice pack.
You don't necessarily announce that decision.
You just do it.
Your child sees a packed lunch appear.
From their perspective, many of the things required to leave the house seem to happen almost by magic.
But if we want children to eventually complete those tasks independently, we need to help them understand how we think through them.
That's where communication with children becomes especially important.
Instead of simply telling kids what to do, we can start showing them how we figure out what needs to happen.
Strategy 1: Narrate What Your Child Is Doing
The first strategy Daniel and I discussed is surprisingly simple.
Describe your child's actions as they're completing a task.
You might say:
“You're putting on your socks.”
“Now you're putting on your shoes.”
“You brought your backpack to the door.”
“Your water bottle is in your bag, so that's ready to go.”
I know.
It sounds a little strange.
Most of us don't naturally speak to our children like sports announcers.
But there's a reason this can be helpful.
Why Narrating Actions Helps
In parent-child interaction therapy, or PCIT, we use a skill called behavior descriptions.
A parent describes what their child is doing in real time.
For example, during play, a parent might say:
“You picked up the red block.”
“Now you're putting it on top of the yellow block.”
“You added another block, and your tower is getting taller.”
This kind of narration can help children stay engaged with what they're doing.
I've also seen it work well during cleanup.
Rather than repeatedly telling a child to clean up, a parent might describe the process as it happens.
“You found the yellow block.”
“Now you're putting it in the box.”
“You've gathered all the blocks from the floor.”
The words help children stay connected to the task.
It's one of those positive parenting techniques that may feel awkward initially but can become surprisingly natural with practice.
Add a Little Reasoning
Daniel suggested taking this strategy one step further.
Don't just describe what your child is doing.
When it makes sense, briefly explain why.
For example:
“You're putting on your shoes before your backpack because it's easier to reach your feet that way.”
Or:
“You're standing still while I put on your sunscreen. That will help protect your skin when we're outside.”
You're connecting the action to its purpose.
And that matters because eventually, we want our children to understand why these steps are necessary without having us remind them every single time.
Strategy 2: Say Your Own Thoughts Out Loud
The second strategy is to narrate your own thinking.
This is where parents can really help children understand the invisible planning that goes into everyday routines.
Let's say you're packing your child's lunch.
Instead of silently completing the task, you might say:
“I'm getting your lunchbox out of the fridge.”
“It's going to be hot today, so I'm adding two ice packs.”
“Now I'm putting everything into your backpack.”
“I'm zipping it all the way so nothing falls out.”
You're making your internal thought process visible.
Show Kids How You Make Decisions
This isn't about giving your child a lecture.
You don't need to stop everything and explain every thought you've ever had.
You're simply letting them hear the reasoning behind ordinary decisions.
For example:
“There's a good chance of rain today, so I'm bringing an umbrella.”
Or:
“We're going to the park, and it's warm outside, so we'll need water bottles.”
Over time, your child starts to connect the steps with the reasons behind them.
Instead of thinking, Mom always makes me bring a water bottle, they begin to understand, When it's hot and we're going outside, we need water.
That's a much more useful skill.
You Don't Have to Narrate Everything
I also want to acknowledge that parents have their own mental load.
Sometimes you're already juggling 15 things, and the thought of narrating all of them sounds exhausting.
You don't need to do this perfectly.
Pick one part of the routine.
Maybe you describe your child's actions while they're getting dressed.
Maybe you explain your own thinking while packing the backpack.
You don't have to do both.
Even small changes in communication with children can create opportunities for learning.
And as Daniel emphasized, repetition matters.
Your child might not pay much attention today.
But tomorrow, they may notice something you said.
Eventually, you might hear them ask:
“Did you remember the extra ice packs? It's hot today.”
That's when you know they're beginning to internalize the process.
Strategy 3: Invite Your Child Into the Problem-Solving
Once you've spent some time narrating your thinking, you can begin involving your child more actively.
Instead of explaining every step, ask them what they think should happen next.
For example:
“It's hot outside today. What do you think we should put in your lunchbox?”
Or:
“We're getting ready to leave. You've got your shoes on. What else do you need?”
You're shifting from doing all the thinking for your child to helping them practice doing some of that thinking themselves.
Start With Questions They Can Answer
Daniel shared an example involving his nine-year-old son making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich.
Rather than making the sandwich for him or giving him every instruction, Daniel walks him through the process.
“What do you need?”
His son gathers the bread, peanut butter, and jelly.
“What's next?”
He begins making the sandwich.
Then he realizes the knife is dirty.
Instead of immediately solving the problem, Daniel asks:
“What do you think you should do about that?”
This gives his son an opportunity to figure out the next step.
He isn't expected to know everything immediately.
He's receiving support while practicing independence.
This Is Called Scaffolding
In child development, scaffolding means providing support while a child learns a skill, then gradually reducing that support as the child becomes more capable.
Think about teaching someone to ride a bike.
At first, you provide a lot of help.
Then you gradually let them do more.
Eventually, they can ride independently.
The same principle applies to getting ready, packing lunches, organizing backpacks, and completing other everyday tasks.
The goal isn't to make children dependent on our instructions forever.
It's to teach them how to manage these tasks themselves.
Pay Attention to Your Child's Emotional State
There's one important detail that can make all of these strategies more effective.
Before you start asking questions or explaining your reasoning, notice how your child is feeling.
Daniel emphasized the importance of emotional attunement.
If your child is calm, curious, and engaged, they may enjoy being invited into the planning process.
You might ask:
“What should we do next?”
“Why do you think we need this?”
“What happens if we forget our water bottles?”
But if your child is overwhelmed, exhausted, or already upset, that may not be the right moment for several questions.
They might need you to take a quieter, more supportive approach.
You can still narrate what's happening without expecting them to respond.
For example:
“It's hot today, so I'm adding another ice pack to your lunch.”
That's it.
No quiz.
No demand.
Just information.
Understanding your child's emotional state is an important part of responding thoughtfully to child behavior.
What If Your Child Thinks You're Being Weird?
Let's say you start narrating your child's actions and they look at you like you've completely lost your mind.
“Why are you talking like that?”
Fair question.
You can simply say:
“I'm trying a different way of helping us get ready so everyone understands what needs to happen.”
Then keep going.
You don't need to make a big deal out of it.
In my clinical experience, most children adjust to this kind of narration pretty quickly, especially when parents keep it casual and supportive.
And remember, you're not trying to narrate every moment of their day.
You're using a tool to help them learn a skill.
Why These Strategies Can Help Kids With ADHD
Children with ADHD may have particular difficulty with executive functioning skills.
They may struggle to remember multiple instructions, organize steps, shift attention, or begin tasks.
That can make everyday routines especially frustrating.
A parent might say:
“Get dressed, brush your teeth, put your lunch in your backpack, and get your shoes on.”
But the child may only remember the first instruction.
Or they may start getting dressed, notice a toy, and become completely absorbed in playing.
This doesn't necessarily mean they aren't trying.
It may mean the task requires more executive functioning than they can manage independently right now.
Breaking routines into smaller steps, making your thinking visible, and gradually involving your child in planning may help.
These positive parenting techniques aren't a replacement for individualized support when a child needs it.
But they can provide practical ways to support skill development during ordinary family routines.
How to Make Your Morning Routine for Kids More Collaborative
One of the biggest changes I hope parents take from this conversation is a shift in perspective.
Instead of thinking:
How do I make my child do what I need them to do?
Try asking:
How can I help my child understand what we're trying to accomplish together?
Those are very different approaches.
The first can easily become a power struggle.
The second creates an opportunity for collaboration.
When children understand the steps and reasoning behind a routine, they're better equipped to participate.
They may still get distracted.
They may still protest putting on shoes.
They may still prefer battling imaginary dragons to packing their backpacks.
But over time, they can begin developing the skills needed to manage those transitions.
A Simple Routine to Try Tomorrow
If you're ready to experiment with these ideas, start small.
1. Describe one thing your child is doing.
“You're putting your socks on.”
2. Add a reason when it makes sense.
“We need our shoes before we go outside.”
3. Narrate one of your own decisions.
“It's chilly this morning, so I'm bringing a jacket.”
4. Invite your child to think about the next step.
“We have our shoes and backpacks. What else do we need?”
5. Adjust based on your child's mood.
If they're overwhelmed, simplify. If they're engaged, let them participate more.
You don't need to transform your entire morning routine for kids overnight.
You're simply creating opportunities for your child to practice thinking through everyday tasks.
Teaching Independence Takes Practice
During our conversation, I remembered something from when I was learning to drive.
For years, my parents had driven me everywhere.
I sat in the car, arrived at my destination, and didn't think much about how we got there.
Then I got my driver's license.
Suddenly, I was expected to know where to go.
And I had absolutely no idea.
I hadn't been paying attention to the route because I hadn't needed to.
Eventually, my parents started pointing out landmarks and explaining where they were turning.
Later, they began asking me which direction we needed to go.
That helped me learn something I hadn't picked up simply by being a passenger.
Our children experience something similar.
They may have watched us pack backpacks, prepare lunches, and organize outings hundreds of times.
But watching isn't always enough.
Sometimes we need to make the thinking behind those tasks explicit.
And eventually, we need to give children opportunities to practice that thinking themselves.
Less Fighting, More Teamwork
I don't think most children wake up in the morning determined to make their parents late.
Usually, they have different priorities.
They're interested in something else.
They're struggling with a transition.
They don't understand the sequence of tasks.
Or they simply haven't developed the skills we're expecting them to use.
When we recognize that, we can approach everyday routines differently.
We can describe what's happening.
We can explain our reasoning.
We can invite children to solve small problems.
And we can gradually give them more responsibility as their skills grow.
The result isn't necessarily a perfectly smooth morning every day.
That's probably unrealistic.
But it can mean fewer battles, more cooperation, and children who are increasingly capable of managing their own routines.
Final Thoughts: Help Your Child Learn How to Think
If your morning routine for kids regularly feels like a battle, remember that your child may need more than another reminder to hurry up.
They may need help learning how to organize their thoughts and actions.
Understanding child behavior through the lens of executive functioning can change how we respond to these frustrating moments.
And when we focus on communication with children and practical positive parenting techniques, we can teach skills that extend far beyond getting out the door.
We're helping children learn to plan, organize, problem-solve, and eventually manage everyday responsibilities independently.
That's a much bigger goal than simply getting everyone's shoes on before we're late.
Although, let's be clear, getting those shoes on would still be pretty wonderful.
For more insights from Daniel Katz, Psy.D., visit Houston Therapy or find him on social media as Psych Talk with Dr. Katz.
And if you're looking for more practical, psychology-based parenting conversations, listen to the full episode of Educated Parent.
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CONNECT WITH DANIEL KATZ:
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[00:00:00] Leah Clionsky: One of the hardest things about parenting is trying to get our kids out the door. How do we get them out in the morning or in the afternoon, or just on Sunday when we're trying to get ice cream? No matter where we're going or what we're doing, helping littles get out the door and organized is such a challenge, and that's what we're gonna be talking about today.
[00:00:21] Leah Clionsky: So I brought on the wonderful Dr. Daniel Katz, and we're going to discuss some strategies that we can use with kids to help them start to understand our own thought processes and slowly become easier to negotiate with and collaborate with as we are going to our activities throughout the week. So, Dr.
[00:00:42] Leah Clionsky: Katz, I am so glad you're here today.
[00:00:45] Daniel Katz: Yeah, thanks. It's great to be here
[00:00:47] Leah Clionsky: So I'm gonna let you introduce yourself a little bit. Tell us a little bit about you and how this topic comes up for you in your life
[00:00:56] Daniel Katz: Sure. Yeah. So I am Dr. Daniel Katz. I'm a psychologist. I also own a group practice here in Houston called Houston Therapy. We have 12 therapists that mostly deal with teens and adults, and we do quite a bit of parenting stuff as well. I also... Let me see. About a year ago or so, I started posting quite a lot on social media, and a good chunk of that is on ADHD and executive functioning stuff.
[00:01:23] Daniel Katz: So I think that's part of how we connected f- for this episode. And it's great. Yeah, I love helping people think about thinking, and helping people to improve their thinking, and helping folks with small kids help their thinking. Yeah. I'm also a parent. I have two kids myself and I know firsthand the struggles of trying to get out the door in the morning or the afternoon, or whenever you're trying to get out the door, or just getting kids from being fully clothed to in the bath to then dried off to then fully clothed again.
[00:01:58] Daniel Katz: I- all the various things that we as pa- as parents have to do that you know, we hold quite a lot of different steps that we have to do, and I think kids don't, which is fine. That's part of being a kid. But it's also important to help teach them how to do that, 'cause that's what we want from our kids, right?
[00:02:15] Daniel Katz: Is to grow up to be fully functioning adults that can do all these things on their own.
[00:02:20] Leah Clionsky: Yeah. Parenting is so hard. Before the recording started, Dr. Katz and I were just talking about how much of a struggle it can be even for us, even with these tools, to sort of get the ball rolling with little kids. It's like we have an agenda, we have, things that we need to happen, especially when it comes to leaving, and it seems when we're in that process of making it happen, that's when our kids get distracted by other things.
[00:02:47] Leah Clionsky: And this can happen with kids who are just young because executive functioning, being able to process information and take steps towards action is hard for little kids. It can also happen if you happen to be a parent of a kiddo with ADHD or any sort of executive functioning problems. It's like that order of operations just isn't there.
[00:03:07] Leah Clionsky: So you are there as the parent trying to get those order of operations accomplished, and maybe your child is now staging an epic battle with their stuffed animals against the other stuffed animals, and there's a tea party involved. That was not my weekend recently or anything like that. Not a real episode. What tend to be the biggest delay strategies for in your house, Daniel? What do you run into with your kids when you're
[00:03:35] Daniel Katz: It was a, we had a two-year battle with shoes. It was every time we had to leave the door, it was shoes. The shoes didn't fit, they felt weird, they felt cold, they felt hot, what- whatever
[00:03:47] Leah Clionsky: Yeah. Shoes can be tough and it's like you need to wear them to leave, but I feel like kids often forget about them. They'll be like 90% ready and then you're like, "Just get your shoes on," and that is like the last holdout in the battle of moving on and getting a task accomplished.
[00:04:04] Daniel Katz: Yes. And I think for, at least for my daughter, I think it was kind of symbolic as to like, "Okay, this is the last thing before I leave the house." And leaving the house is scary, right? The house is safe. It's contained. My parents are here. They love me. I know what's gonna happen. Out there, who the hell knows what's gonna happen?
[00:04:21] Daniel Katz: So if I can have a protest, a battle about my shoes, maybe I can push off that inevitable scariness that's coming.
[00:04:29] Leah Clionsky: Well, there can be so many reasons why kids can push back against leaving. They can just be nervous about leaving. They can forget all the steps required to leave. They can just be interested in something else. I always feel like that's what my kids are into, is they're just like in such rich, imaginative lives that it's like I'm t- I'm talking some- about something reasonable and boring, but their like fantasy life is so much cooler, and just pulling them out of that to do those tasks to get out the door is so hard.
[00:05:00] Daniel Katz: Yeah. Yeah. They're engaged in some play where they're fighting off dragons, and I'm like, "Hey, we need to think about is your water bottle full?" And they could care less about that.
[00:05:11] Leah Clionsky: You know what? The other thing too, and like you and I have talked about this a little bit as well, but just this idea that like as adults, for kids, I don't think they understand the thought process behind what we're actually doing. Like things just get done almost by magic. It's like suddenly there's a bag prepared with water bottles, right?
[00:05:33] Leah Clionsky: The clothes are laid out. Like the, the steps are kind of done, and they're just not thinking the way that we are thinking. So then if we take a step back at all and ask them to do any of the organization of those, those steps alone, like, "Hey, just go get dressed. Just go get ready," they have not heard us explicitly talk through our own thought processes, and then they have a really hard time like executing that.
[00:06:01] Daniel Katz: Of course. Yeah, 'cause to them it's all of a sudden a huge thing, whereas to us it's a 20-item bullet list that we have.
[00:06:09] Leah Clionsky: Right. That we've been practicing for years, right?
[00:06:12] Daniel Katz: Years.
[00:06:13] Leah Clionsky: Yeah. We-
[00:06:14] Daniel Katz: And no, it's helping kids to, to, to learn how to think about thinking, right? That it's a skill to be able to think about this, to be able to process all of this, to metabolize all of this, hold it all in mind. And I feel like with kids, you have to give it to them piecemeal.
[00:06:29] Daniel Katz: You have to kind of slowly scaffold them into it
[00:06:32] Leah Clionsky: Mm-hmm. So this idea of thinking about thinking is called mentalizing
[00:06:39] Daniel Katz: Yeah. Yeah. So it mentalizing comes out of the psychoanalytic research, and it's based often a bit more about the kind of thinking about your emotional world and thinking about someone else's emotional world. But it also applies to just basic executive functioning skills, is how do I think about how I'm thinking about things?
[00:06:59] Daniel Katz: How do I think about how other people are thinking about things?
[00:07:03] Leah Clionsky: Mm-hmm. It's like putting words to the steps. Like, like saying your thought process out loud in this kind of circumstance and putting words to the steps that you're doing. Is that-- Am I understanding correctly?
[00:07:15] Daniel Katz: That's a large part of it. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:07:17] Leah Clionsky: Am I mentalizing what you're thinking about right now?
[00:07:20] Daniel Katz: You are. You are. Yeah, no, i- it's being able to, I'll take a step back. I feel like most of our thoughts happen very quickly, sometimes with internal dialogue, sometimes not. But in order to teach that to someone we have to use some kind of a language, right?
[00:07:35] Daniel Katz: We have to be able to communicate it. So being able to put our fast internal thought process down into words, into simple steps is vital for kids, right? And so that's mentalizing. It's being able to understand your thought process and then being able to communicate it clearly to a, a six-year-old who, you know, at a six-year-old level.
[00:07:58] Leah Clionsky: Right. So you have to first of all think about what you're thinking about because it just might be, you might be on autopilot. So it's like it requires work, right? I guess as a parent, 'cause you're like, "What am I even thinking in those moments?" And then there's a translation aspect. How do I translate my thoughts for the child who's here in front of me?
[00:08:18] Leah Clionsky: So it's not something that will just happen automatically. Doing this, teaching our kids how to think and how we're thinking is gonna require some effort and some intentionality.
[00:08:29] Daniel Katz: Very much so. Very much so. Yeah. I was, yeah, I got distracted by a thought. What
[00:08:36] Leah Clionsky: You're gonna give a great example though
[00:08:38] Daniel Katz: You know . No, I was thinking about there is some parenting book or something that I read at some point that talked a lot about they called it like sportscasting to where you're just trying to like narrate what the child is doing. And I was trying to connect that concept to mentalizing. Yeah
[00:08:56] Leah Clionsky: Well, you know, that is really similar to a skill in parent-child interaction therapy that I always think about called behavior descriptions. So when you're playing with your child, you're describing what they do as if you're like a sports announcer. You're picking up the block and you're putting it on the other block, and now you're building a tower, and now you've added that last block and the tower fell over.
[00:09:17] Leah Clionsky: So you're helping them really follow along with that. And it works, tends to work very well for things like cleaning up. You know, "Oh, you're taking those blocks and you're putting them in the box, and then you found the yellow block and now you're rounding up all the blocks," and the kids get into it. So it's not you like sharing your own thought process, but it's you helping them to see their action connected to like the process of what they're trying to accomplish.
[00:09:42] Leah Clionsky: So we see a lot more ability to do tasks in PCIT when parents are applying those skills. And I probably could do a whole podcast episode, and maybe I will, on how you can use that skill. But this is like a whole level deeper. This is like, let me translate my internal process to you so that you are then able to follow those directions and we can be on the same page and collaborate
[00:10:05] Daniel Katz: yes. But I think that's the beginning, is that it helps to have someone narrate that stuff to you so that you can begin to see you put the red block away, you put the yellow block away, right? That's part of it, and then you can internalize that so you can have your own narration of that thought process.
[00:10:21] Leah Clionsky: So if we're getting into like some specific strategies where parents can help their kids mentalize when they're getting out the door, is that your first recommendation? Like just follow through as they're going through a typical leaving the house routine and describe, forecast their steps. "Oh, like you're getting your backpack and you're bringing it to the door, so now you're all prepared.
[00:10:44] Leah Clionsky: You know, you're putting on your socks and you're putting on your shoes." Like would that be a like good starting point for parents as they're kind of trying to teach this thought process to kids?
[00:10:53] Daniel Katz: That's a great starting point. That's a great starting point because it'll help teach the kids that process, but it'll also help us with the next step, which is being able to identify and understand your own thought process there, right? And so if I'm describing it, I'm already getting more comfortable with like, "Oh yeah, here's are all the steps that I'm holding in my mind that I need to verbalize."
[00:11:14] Leah Clionsky: Okay, so step one is describe your child's current actions towards leaving the house. So if
[00:11:22] Daniel Katz: Even as you're suggesting things like, "Hey, it's time to put on your shoes. Oh, look, you're putting on your shoes. We have to do that before we leave. Oh, you're putting on your shoes before you put on your backpack because it would be hard to put on your shoes while you're wearing a backpack."
[00:11:36] Leah Clionsky: I love that. I love that combination because it's like you're s- you're sticking in some reasoning, but you're also really helping kids stay on track. And clinically, I've seen over and over again that if you add that verbalization, people are much more likely to stick with a task than if you don't say anything at all.
[00:11:56] Leah Clionsky: It's like the words keep them focused on what they're already doing, and it sounds like you're taking it a whole step further and you're adding some reasoning around that. Oh, you're putting-- You're standing still so that I can put on sunscreen and you're rubbing it in, and now you'll be protected from the sun on the walk to school, if that's our example.
[00:12:13] Leah Clionsky: So you're like, it's like forecasting or behavior descriptions plus. Like, what are you doing and then what is the reasoning behind it?
[00:12:22] Daniel Katz: Yeah. Yeah. So it's so they can understand the why of it, because that's a big part of executive functioning is being able to think, "Why do I need to do this?"
[00:12:31] Leah Clionsky: Right. Right. You're teaching the logic along with the task, which then when they're trying to figure out how to get ready on their own at some point, they remember, "I don't wanna be burnt by the sun." So it helps give them that additional context.
[00:12:45] Daniel Katz: Exactly. It's not just something that mom or dad is making me do 'cause they're mean.
[00:12:52] Leah Clionsky: I will tell you, like, so people who are listening to this podcast, the describing does feel weird at first. It does. Like, it's not how we normally talk to kids unless you're into mentalizing or a PCIT therapist where describing is something I've been doing for 20 years. But you know, it will feel a little weird, but if you imagine like, I am literally just being a sports announcer for the situation that's going on, and when there's a good reason about why we're doing something, I'm gonna add that in.
[00:13:25] Leah Clionsky: You will see pretty quickly a change in your child's focus on the task that you're explaining. And most kids are gonna accept this without being overly annoyed by it
[00:13:36] Daniel Katz: Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's-- maybe this is outside the scope of our conversation right now, but I think having that emotional attunement, having that emotional attunement is key for that, to be able to see where is my child emotionally right now, and then what information can they hear? What can they process right now?
[00:13:55] Leah Clionsky: Yeah. And if your kid says, "Why are you saying that to me?" You say, "Oh, I'm just learning some different ways of helping everyone understand how to get out the door." Like, if you react really, like, casually to that, something like that, kids accept. All right, I love first strategy is describe plus add your reasoning in there if it makes sense.
[00:14:13] Leah Clionsky: You don't have to give a whole lecture. It can just be a phrase or a quick understanding of why that's happening. All right, what's the second thing parents should keep in mind when they're trying to help their child understand this process, the, like, the thoughts behind leaving the house?
[00:14:29] Daniel Katz: So I think the, the second thing is to just try to verbalize your internal dialogue as much as possible. I mean, the helpful part of it, not, "Oh, no, I've got a, a meeting with Lisa, and Lisa's my boss and I hate Lisa." Not that part, but the part of like, "Okay, hey, we need to get the lunchbox out of the fridge and put it into the lunch container," right?
[00:14:51] Daniel Katz: "And then we need to zip the container up, and then we need to put the lunch container into the backpack," right? So all these steps that for us are just automatic, our kids don't know about. And if we can make those verbal, if we can speak those out loud, that way our kids can start to learn what they are and then eventually can take it over and can do it for themselves.
[00:15:14] Leah Clionsky: Mm-hmm. So you're just pulling back the curtain on your own internal experience. So step one is describing your child's external experience, the task they are doing, and the other step is describing your own internal experience. "I'm adding two ice packs because it's really hot today, and I don't want the food to get too warm."
[00:15:33] Leah Clionsky: So you're just giving some details, you know, "Now I'm putting it in the backpack and I'm zipping it up all the way to make sure nothing falls out." So just kind of like letting them see what you're thinking.
[00:15:44] Daniel Katz: I'm bringing an umbrella because the forecast has 80% chance of rain today
[00:15:48] Leah Clionsky: Yeah. I think kids really wanna know, kids wanna know about us. Like, they're c- they're curious about us. They wanna know what we're thinking. They wanna know why we're doing the things that we're doing. You know, and this is not one of those situations where it's like, "You stop everything and listen to my thoughts.
[00:16:06] Leah Clionsky: This is a lecture on why I'm doing it." You're just, like, running this in the background. You're just throwing in your own descriptions of your thought process, you know, as other things are happening. And maybe your child's listening with a lot of attention to this, or maybe they're not, but at least it's going in somewhere, even if it's not super conscious and registered by them.
[00:16:25] Daniel Katz: Exactly. And just repetition. Just repetition with it. Even if they're not listening today to, you know, some of it, tomorrow they might listen to that portion of it
[00:16:36] Leah Clionsky: Right? Or your child might say to you, "Did you add the two ice packs? Because it is really hot today." And then you know
[00:16:41] Daniel Katz: be wonderful. That's it. That's the win.
[00:16:44] Leah Clionsky: Yeah, they really were like taking it in to some degree. Yeah. This is-- I love this because it doesn't require a whole lot of prep ahead, right? This is sort of that experiential, like you're putting your phone down and you're like, "Okay, I'm gonna focus on describing them and describing me."
[00:16:59] Leah Clionsky: Or one of them, right? Maybe both things are too much for your own mental load when you're trying to get out the door, but just approaching one of them would be better than neither.
[00:17:09] Daniel Katz: Yeah. Yeah, exactly
[00:17:10] Leah Clionsky: And what's our third step?
[00:17:15] Daniel Katz: Great question
[00:17:17] Leah Clionsky: Is our-- Is it recapping? What is our third step?
[00:17:25] Daniel Katz: I think I think I don't know if this should be a third step or not. I d- I think an important step in this process is to
[00:17:44] Daniel Katz: not only include them in your thought process, but you can start to ask them about it. Like, "Okay, hey, I got out the lunchbox. Is it hot or cold today? Oh, it's hot. Okay, sure. Then what should we do about that?"
[00:17:58] Leah Clionsky: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:58] Daniel Katz: Right? So after you've been narrating your own thoughts for a while, you can start to kind of, playfully, don't make it weird, ask them, include them, kind of quiz them on it
[00:18:09] Leah Clionsky: All of this. You're just pulling them into your reasoning. You know, you're trying to get them thinking with you. You're engaging them in your own thought process
[00:18:18] Daniel Katz: That's exactly, engaging them in your own thought process and then the o- your own process as to w- whatever the heck y'all are doing together
[00:18:25] Leah Clionsky: Yeah. And I love what you said earlier too about like the attunement perspective of like if your child looks completely overwhelmed, this is not the time to ask them three questions about that. Maybe you're just quietly running in the background. You're like, "Oh, okay. It is pretty hot. I'm gonna add an extra ice pack.
[00:18:40] Leah Clionsky: I think that will keep your lunch cold." You're just kind of like not making any demands on them. But if they're there, if they're engaged, if they seem curious, why not rope them in with your engagement and reasoning? You know, and I can think of moments where like my kids would be very on board with being roped in.
[00:18:57] Leah Clionsky: Like they would want to weigh in on the reasoning behind what's going on. And I can think of mornings or times of day where they're irritable, and I would probably just run in the background
[00:19:07] Daniel Katz: Yes. Yes. And well, and now my kids are a little older, and we still do this. It's like I'm thinking my son making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. And so he's like, "Can you make me one?" "No, you can make one yourself." "Okay." "What do you need? Let's think about it," right? So he gets the bread, he gets the peanut butter, he gets the jelly.
[00:19:24] Daniel Katz: "Okay, great. Now what's the next step?" "Open the bread." "What's next?" "Spread the peanut butter. Oh, the knife's dirty." "Okay, well, what do you think you should do about that?" Right? So instead of me giving him all the answers, he knows. He's nine at this point, right? He's watched me. He's made his own a few times.
[00:19:46] Daniel Katz: Just helping him to think through it. So it's more of a, a scaffolding approach. But I think after you've externalized your dialogue enough, then you can start to really include them and say like, "Hey, what's the next step here?"
[00:19:59] Leah Clionsky: No, I love that also because kids want to be independent and they wanna do things on their own. And, you know, like when you are just observing, then it's hard for you necessarily to know how to do it. It reminds me of like when I was learning how to drive, and like for years I'd been going everywhere and my parents were driving the car.
[00:20:20] Leah Clionsky: And by the way, not pointing out any landmarks, they're just driving. And then they're like, "Okay, you have your license. Drive to here." And I was like, "I have no idea how to get there."
[00:20:30] Leah Clionsky: Right? I--
[00:20:31] Daniel Katz: this was before we all had phones in our pockets that had maps on them and
[00:20:35] Leah Clionsky: 'Cause, 'cause we're very old, right? So yeah. So there was no-- It was like I was never attending to that aspect.
[00:20:42] Leah Clionsky: So what started happening is when they would drive, they would say like, "Notice that I'm turning right on this street." And then they started giving me those directions. And then after a while it was like, "Okay, we're here. Which way do you go?" So, you know, they're-- I don't know that my parents scaffolded this perfectly, but like that's what became a more built-in when they realized that I was completely clueless and directionally challenged.
[00:21:05] Leah Clionsky: So it's like if you go into this ahead of time thinking it through, then we can really help our kids, and we can, again, be collaborative with them, so leaving the house feels like something you're doing together versus a fight that you're having, when I think most of the time our kids don't wanna have conflict with us.
[00:21:21] Leah Clionsky: They actually want us to be happy with them. They just have a different goal, a different distraction, or don't know how to be organized.
[00:21:28] Daniel Katz: Very much so. Yeah, and so if we can just help them to be organized and help engage them in the process, right? So then we have the same goal. Th- they're not fighting off the imaginary dragons. They're here with me trying to get their backpack ready
[00:21:41] Leah Clionsky: Yeah, although I would rather be fighting the dragons. I think I, I would rather do their role.
[00:21:45] Daniel Katz: Who wouldn't?
[00:21:46] Leah Clionsky: We just agree never to leave the house and just play instead.
[00:21:50] Daniel Katz: sure.
[00:21:51] Leah Clionsky: Yeah, that's the end of-- That's what we ta- taught in this episode. Just stay
[00:21:55] Daniel Katz: the
[00:21:55] Leah Clionsky: and play with dragons.
[00:21:57] Daniel Katz: stay home, play with dragons. You're-- We're gonna
[00:22:01] Leah Clionsky: Daniel, I absolutely love this. Tell everyone how they can contact you if they're looking for some help, if they wanna reach out and get some, learn more about this mentalizing and being more attuned with themselves
[00:22:14] Daniel Katz: Sure. Yeah. So, you can go to houston-therapy.com. That's our main website, and we have tons of good information there about parenting, about mentalizing, and any of the, any of our great therapists, all their info's there. And if you'd like to follow any of my social media stuff I've got an Instagram account, I've got a TikTok, a YouTube.
[00:22:33] Daniel Katz: It's all Psych Talk with Dr. Katz
[00:22:37] Leah Clionsky: And it's fun. It's super relatable. You will feel seen and heard
[00:22:41] Daniel Katz: Yeah. Yeah. I talk about a lot of this stuff
[00:22:43] Leah Clionsky: Yeah. Well, this was so much fun. Thank you so much for coming on, and now we will be ending the episode
[00:22:51] Daniel Katz: Well, thank you for having me. It's been great
[00:22:54] Leah Clionsky: And I hope you have a fantastic week. I look forward to talking to all you guys on Instagram, and we will I will see you again next time