What Age Should a Child Get a Cell Phone? The Truth About Phones for Kids Every Parent Needs to Hear with Dr. Rupa Robbins
As a psychologist and fellow parent, I get it: the pressure is real.
You want your child to stay safe, connected, and included. But you also want to protect them from distractions, dangers, and the mental health minefield of early tech use.
And that leads us to the question I hear constantly: what age should a child get a cell phone?
It’s not just about tech - it’s about values, boundaries, and knowing what your child (and you) are ready for. And in this week’s episode of the Educated Parent podcast, I invited digital wellness expert Dr. Rupa Robbins of Tech Positive Parenting to help us unpack it.
If you’ve ever wondered should kids have smartphones, or if you’ve been swayed by all the reasons why not to give your child a phone, this post is for you.
Why the Question of Phones for Kids Feels So Big
Unlike car seats or sleep schedules, there’s no universal rulebook. Every parent I know in is making a different decision - and second-guessing it.
That’s because we’re the first generation of parents raising children in a fully digital world. Our own parents never had to ask, what age should a child get a cell phone. It simply wasn’t an issue.
Now, between safety concerns, social pressure, and real risks, parents are stuck in analysis paralysis.
The answer? There’s no perfect age. But there are better questions. And Dr. Robbins shared three essential ones:
1. How old is your child - and how would you describe them?
Here’s what the research says: the older your child is, the better. According to a global Sapien Labs study teens who got their phones after age 13 reported better mental health and social functioning.
So, when thinking about phones for kids, the first question to ask is: how developed is your child’s emotional regulation? Their self-esteem? Their decision-making?
Dr. Robbins explained that a 13-year-old and a 15-year-old are wildly different in brain maturity - and both are still learning how to manage screen time and peer comparison.
If you're wondering what age should a child get a cell phone, consider waiting as long as possible. Each year of delay adds resilience and readiness.
This isn’t just about peer pressure. It’s about preparation. If your child is younger than 13, think twice - and consider alternatives to smartphones.
2. What’s the function of the phone?
A smartphone is a powerful, multi-use device. But most kids don’t need every function. If the goal is:
Safety: Basic flip phones or smartwatches can track locations and make calls.
Coordination: Limited-text devices or home phones may be enough.
Social access: Consider whether they need all the apps and web access - or just messaging.
Ask yourself: should kids have smartphones when they just need GPS? Probably not.
Many families are choosing stripped-down phones for kids from companies like Bark or Gabb. These tools give kids communication without the constant pull of social media, games, or online risk.
If you're still on the fence, this is a huge part of why not to give your child a phone - at least not yet. Matching the tool to the task prevents unnecessary exposure.
3. Can you teach and manage the device?
Here’s the overlooked truth: Giving a child a phone isn’t a “one-and-done.”
It’s the beginning of a long-term learning process.
That means:
Setting consistent phone rules
Having regular check-ins
Monitoring use and behavior
Modeling your own tech boundaries
Ask yourself: Do I have the time, energy, and mental space to be my child’s tech mentor?
If not, you may want to wait. Because one of the biggest reasons why not to give your child a phone too early is parent burnout and disengagement. A phone without a teacher is a recipe for chaos.
And as Dr. Robbins shared - phones are more powerful than cars. You wouldn’t give them keys without driver’s ed. Why do we hand them the internet without a plan?
Keep Ownership Clear: It's Your Phone
One of my favorite tips? Never say “Here’s your phone.”
Instead: “This is my phone that I’m letting you use.”
It sounds small, but it changes everything. When you retain ownership, it’s easier to enforce phone rules and set expectations.
Otherwise, if it’s their phone, your limits feel like punishment. But if it’s your property on loan, boundaries make sense.
This shift matters - especially with phones for kids who are still learning responsibility.
So... Should Kids Have Smartphones?
Short answer: not yet.
Long answer: only when they’re developmentally ready, emotionally equipped, and you’re prepared to guide them.
If you’re still debating what age should a child get a cell phone, remember this: every year you delay builds their capacity.
If they need a device? Consider safer phones for kids without internet, social media, or app stores. These help children learn boundaries before they’re exposed to risk.
And remember: one of the best reasons why not to give your child a phone too early? You only get one shot at their first digital experience. Make it slow, intentional, and supportive.
A Quick Recap Before You Hit “Buy”
Before you hand over a phone, ask yourself:
What age should a child get a cell phone - and is my child emotionally ready?
What’s the purpose? Should kids have smartphones or would something simpler do?
Am I ready to teach, monitor, and set phone rules?
If not? It’s okay to wait. Or to start with limited phones for kids that support safety without compromising wellbeing.
Because when it comes to your child’s first phone, later is often better. And thoughtful is always best.
🎧 Want more real talk on parenting, phones, and mental health?
Listen to the full episode of The Educated Parent:
What Age Should a Child Get a Cell Phone? The Truth About Phones for Kids Every Parent Needs to Hear
Resources mentioned in this episode:
Sapien Labs study: Age of First Smartphone/Tablet and Mental Wellbeing Outcomes
Let’s connect:
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Are you a provider? Subscribe here for professional insights and parenting resources!
Connect with Dr. Rupa Robbins:
Tech Positive Parenting Website
Instagram @techpositiveparenting
Tech Positive Parenting Substack
Join the interested list for the upcoming course: So, You're Ready for a Phone?
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[00:00:00] Leah Clionsky: Welcome to the Educated Parent Podcast. I am your host, Dr. Leah Konski, and I am so excited about our guest today because we are going to answer the question that everybody is asking. And this is the question, at what age should you get your child a phone? A phone of their own, a smartphone with internet access?
[00:00:22] Leah Clionsky: When is that actually a good idea? So I'm here today with Dr. Robbins, Dr. Rupa Robbins. She's a licensed psychologist with over a decade of experience working with children and families. She currently works in her own private practice, sparks psychology, where she conducts neuropsychological evaluations and provides individual therapy for children and teens.
[00:00:44] Leah Clionsky: In addition to spark psychology, Dr. Robbins founded Tech Positive Parenting, an educational platform committed to helping families find wellness in the digital age. She's spoken nationwide on parenting in the digital age and promoting digital wellness. So I am so excited to have Dr. Robbins here with us today to answer this question that I honestly, I see popping up everywhere.
[00:01:08] Rupa Robbins: Yeah. Thank you so much for the introduction, Leah. I'm so happy to be here and I would
[00:01:12] Leah Clionsky: Oh.
[00:01:13] Rupa Robbins: This question is popping up everywhere. It's always something that parents are asking me in my clinical practice, um, in my day-to-day life. It's all over.
[00:01:23] Leah Clionsky: Oh yeah. It's all over Facebook. It's all over Instagram. It is When people say, I'm ha that I have a, when I tell people that I have a parenting podcast, it is one of the questions they ask me first. So I'm really glad we're gonna discuss it for
[00:01:35] Rupa Robbins: Me too. Absolutely.
[00:01:37] Leah Clionsky: Yeah. Why do you think it is such a hot topic? Like I have some ideas, but you really see this a lot.
[00:01:44] Leah Clionsky: Why do you think everyone is so concerned about when to introduce a smartphone?
[00:01:48] Rupa Robbins: So I think that this is kinda one of the greatest parenting challenges of. Our generation, right? So our parents, as they were raising us, didn't have this challenge. Um, for me, I didn't have a, I didn't have a phone until I was in able to drive, you know, 16 and I didn't have a smartphone until well into college.
[00:02:09] Rupa Robbins: Um, but for our generation of parents, it's this new. Challenge that we're tackling and we're trying to figure out how to incorporate digital technology into our parenting. Um, I also think that now at this time. We are seeing the implications of the kind of the generation that was just before us, right?
[00:02:31] Rupa Robbins: So the parents of Gen Z, who unfortunately are grappling with a lot of mental health challenges, a lot of anxiety and depression, uh, um, as a result of potentially being, you know, having kind of unfettered access to, uh, digital technology because. The parents didn't know any better, right? This was presented and they were given phones and there were really no rules, and then the pandemic hit.
[00:02:58] Rupa Robbins: Um, and so we are in this place where, where we're really grappling with what it means to give our kids access to digital technology and how we can do that in an intentional, um, educated way.
[00:03:12] Leah Clionsky: Oh yeah, absolutely. It's like we have this really powerful tool in our hands and we know our children need to learn how to use it and use it responsibly, and we we're never taught. How to use it responsibly ourselves. So there's no, there's no lesson we can learn that we've been taught that we can pass along.
[00:03:31] Leah Clionsky: It's really hard.
[00:03:31] Rupa Robbins: Exactly, and I think, I think one of the most powerful things that, the most powerful tools that we have in our toolbox is modeling kind of that challenge for our kids and helping them understand that we don't have all the answers, but that we're here to, to help them to learn what balance, what, um, well.
[00:03:50] Rupa Robbins: Know digital wellness looks like for them because we're learning that for ourselves too.
[00:03:55] Leah Clionsky: Yeah. Yeah. Even I'm thinking back to when I got access to the internet and the, there were no rules. Nobody ever told me how to stay safe on the internet. It was,
[00:04:05] Rupa Robbins: There was a lot of a OL instant messaging. Well into the night.
[00:04:09] Leah Clionsky: Oh yeah. Well into the night with whom? Who knows?
[00:04:12] Rupa Robbins: exactly.
[00:04:14] Leah Clionsky: Yeah. It's so challenging. I know you shared with me Rupa that like me, you have, you have littles as well, and I'm wondering how, you're already thinking about this question with your own small children who I'm sure are way too young for you to consider this as an option
[00:04:29] Rupa Robbins: Yes, absolutely. So my kids are three and five and so they are definitely too young at this point to be, for me to be asking this specific question, but. Um, I feel that there is a general parenting philosophy that I'm trying to follow, which with technology is really kind of this combination of delaying independent access for as long as I can while educating about and, and building the self-regulation tools that I think that my kids are gonna need when they do one day have access.
[00:05:03] Rupa Robbins: Um, so right now with my little kids, what this looks like is. They're generally either co-viewing, so if they're watching something, uh, either my husband or I are in the general proximity. We do use that time to get stuff done, uh, because we're human and so we aren't always watching with them. Like, you know, the research says we should be, but we're somewhere around and we know what they're watching.
[00:05:28] Rupa Robbins: Um, and my kids do not at this point have any other access to technology, so I have not. Given them, um, access to the iPad or anything along those lines, with the exception of my older daughter using the Hooked on Phonics app to learn to read, uh, which she does with one of us next to her. Um, but I'm trying to delay for as long as I can.
[00:05:50] Rupa Robbins: And I also, at this point, the other tool that I'm using that I referred to a little bit, um, earlier, is modeling. So I talk about my own device use and my husband talks about his own device use. Very frequently, right? Oh, I got sucked into, you know, to something on my phone. I'm so sorry. I wasn't paying attention in the way that I should have.
[00:06:11] Rupa Robbins: I'm gonna put it over here because sometimes it captures my attention in a way that, um, that, you know, doesn't serve us well. Something along those lines. But I say those things out loud so that my kids hear me learning and learning to still, learning to self-regulate with my device. Um, my husband uses the brick, which is a device that you can use to kind of turn on, or I'm sorry, turn off certain functionality on, on your phone.
[00:06:36] Rupa Robbins: So he will, he, you know, it's a, it's a saying in our house. Now I'm gonna brick my phone. Um, so that it turns off all of his work functionality between a certain, you know, certain hours. So that he can be more present with the kids and with me. Um, so the way that we're, you know, that we're approaching it right now is really through modeling the way that we want them to be thinking about their device use when they do have access to devices and showing them that we make mistakes and we are constantly evolving and constantly learning as well.
[00:07:08] Leah Clionsky: I love what you're saying about, um, modeling sort of how this can be used and like how you can get sucked in because of course I'm human. This happens to me when I'm parenting and it hasn't occurred to me to like out loud name it. It's more that I go to take a picture of my kids doing something cute than something pops up on Instagram, then I'm sucked in and then I realize and then I feel terrible about it and try to put the phone away, but I'm not.
[00:07:31] Leah Clionsky: Communicating out loud that this happened to me. So they don't have awareness of what's going on. And I think that this is such a good, um, this is such a good strategy already for the parents of young kids who are listening that we can all start implementing right now to start teaching that regulation.
[00:07:47] Leah Clionsky: I think that's amazing. Thank you for
[00:07:50] Rupa Robbins: Of course it's been working really well in our family, but the one thing I will warn you of is your children will become your little police officers. So they will be the ones saying, daddy, break your phone, or, mommy, what are you looking at? And that is, it's a really good reminder, right, because they, they're noticing and they, they are, uh, they're using their voice to express what they need.
[00:08:10] Rupa Robbins: And that's exactly what we want them to do. Um, but don't be surprised if they start becoming your inner monologue.
[00:08:16] Leah Clionsky: Honestly, I would probably like it
[00:08:18] Rupa Robbins: Yeah,
[00:08:19] Leah Clionsky: because my goal is always to be on my phone less, so I think that that would really be wonderful. I don't know how much my husband will like it, but we'll see what happens with him.
[00:08:29] Rupa Robbins: Little by little,
[00:08:31] Leah Clionsky: Little by little. Yeah. But I think that you're making such a good point about this is like a developmental thing that we now have to teach kids from the beginning of their lives really is understanding this use of devices in their day to day and then gradually figuring out when are we gonna give you some independent access?
[00:08:50] Leah Clionsky: Because that's really the next step at some point, right? They're gonna have this, this power in their own little hands. And, and we have to figure out when that time is. Right. And I think people get so stuck because they don't wanna be their, they don't wanna have their child be left out, right? They don't want to hear, you know, oh, I didn't get invited to this because it went out on Snapchat and I didn't hear about it.
[00:09:13] Leah Clionsky: They don't want their child to miss out on the social life. And also, most of us have some awareness that like the internet can be a dark and scary place, and bad things do happen to people through these apps.
[00:09:24] Rupa Robbins: Absolutely, absolutely. I think that there's a, a real struggle and a real kind of both internal and external struggle for parents, um, as to, you know, when we start to lengthen that kind of tether and when we start to give them more autonomy and more independence. Um, my general advice is always to. Do it in a very kind of scaffolded and gradual manner.
[00:09:49] Rupa Robbins: So the analogy that I often like to use is that we wouldn't give, give a teenager the keys to a car without them going through driver's ed, without teaching them, you know, them having several hours. Several hundred hours of practice before they are able to independently drive. And even though it's much smaller, uh, uh, digital device like an iPhone or an Android has just as much, if not more power than, you know, a car in that sense.
[00:10:17] Rupa Robbins: Right? And the power to do good. The power to damage, the power to really have access to the entire world out there. And so we need to be thinking about it in the same way. What does kind of driver's ed look like for. For, uh, digital device use.
[00:10:34] Leah Clionsky: Wow, that's such a powerful analogy. I resonate so much with that, and I think that leads us directly into. The real question of today is when should we be thinking about giving our child their first phone? Like what are the factors to consider? What are you, what are your thoughts?
[00:10:52] Rupa Robbins: Yeah. So I wanna talk about this in kind of a three-pronged approach. So there are three questions that I would love if parents ask themselves when they're considering giving their their children access to a device independently. So the first sounds so simple, but it's actually really important, and it is how old is your child?
[00:11:11] Rupa Robbins: Um, a few weeks ago there was a large scale longitudinal study that was put out by Sapien Labs, and they looked at kinda the, uh, wellbeing of, of teenagers in relation to when they were given their first phone. And they found that when that phone was given to them after the age of 13, those, the, those children had much higher.
[00:11:38] Rupa Robbins: Feelings of wellbeing, less anxiety, less depression, less aggression. From when we moved downward from 13, with each age there were incrementally higher symptoms. And so I think that this is a really powerful indicator that every year that we delay is, you know, is, is so transformative for our kids and is giving them kind of more of this mental health capital and this wellbeing capital.
[00:12:06] Rupa Robbins: It's giving them more of a chance of developing those kinda wellbeing. Um. Skills. So if your child is above 13, I think you've already probably done a really nice job of delaying and it probably hasn't been easy. If you have an eight or 9-year-old who's asking for a phone, I would urge you to think about, um, kind of the next two questions we're gonna talk about, which, which, the next one is really thinking about what the function of the phone is and whether there's a reasonable alternative.
[00:12:37] Rupa Robbins: Um, so. I think there are a lot of different reasons that people give their children phones. And the first one, the one that I hear very frequently is safety, right? So in my community, a lot of kids white, uh, excuse me, walk to school, bike to school, get to school independently or are, um, kind of in the community independently.
[00:12:58] Rupa Robbins: And so their kids, I mean, their parents wanna know how to track them. They wanna know where they are. They wanna know that they've reached school and. In this situation, there is a reasonable alternative that is not a full-blown, you know, um, smartphone. So there are a couple of companies that have put together kind of kids safe phones.
[00:13:18] Rupa Robbins: The two that that I see parents use most often are bark and gab. There are old school flip phones. The phone that I got when I was, you know, six 16 a razor or something like that. Um, there are also. Smartwatches, which do provide a little more access, right? You can message, you can access certain apps, you can take pictures, you can share things, but they provide, uh, a lot of kind of.
[00:13:46] Rupa Robbins: Control and the functionalities are really well designed for parents to be able to, uh, support their kids in learning how to use those tools. And so if the primary function is safety, I would consider if there are other, you know, other options that might be able to fulfill that functionality.
[00:14:04] Leah Clionsky: So it sounds like first you're just thinking, how old is this child? Because if they're under 13, you ideally want to wait until at least 13 if you can. It's close to 13, the better. I mean, second, I'm curious about why you, why you think it's like that? If it's just like the exposure in the comparison to everyone else, or not learning other self-regulation skills would be my guess.
[00:14:29] Leah Clionsky: But I bet there's some other factors at
[00:14:30] Rupa Robbins: Yeah. I think there are a couple of things at play. I think what you mentioned is definitely. Definitely a factor. So, um, a lot of the research shows that kind of the early teen years are really different than the later teen years, and especially those kind of pre-teen to early teen years in the way that kids are comparing themselves to others, the way that they're formulating their self-worth, their self-concept, all of these things, um, and their self-regulation and maturity skills are much lower.
[00:14:59] Rupa Robbins: And those increase and get. So much stronger with each each year that passes. So if you think about giving a 13-year-old a phone versus giving a 15-year-old a phone, it is drastically different. Same thing with an 11-year-old and a 13-year-old, right? Their brains work in such different ways. And so, um, that I think is, is the major factor, is brain development kind of self-esteem and the way that kids are, are learning these skills.
[00:15:28] Leah Clionsky: Yeah. Yeah, that makes so much sense. So we're first thinking, how old are you? And we're thinking the number 13, we're like not forgetting that number. And the second thing you're thinking about is why am I giving this to my child? And if the reason is safety, what are the other options? Because if I can avoid a phone and go for something else.
[00:15:47] Leah Clionsky: That's not, doesn't give us so much access and have so much risk. Maybe go in that direction. Yeah. What's your third thing to consider in these moments?
[00:15:55] Rupa Robbins: So, um, my third thing is really thinking about yourself as a parent and what you have the capacity for. So when you are giving your child a phone, it is not the type of thing where you're handing it to them. You're wrapping it up really nice for the holidays, and then they're going off to their room and it's never, you know, something that you talk about again.
[00:16:17] Rupa Robbins: Instead, it is something that, that we want you to be a very active, um, participant in, right? We want you to be very, very involved in the learning and the skills and the self-regulation that need to be, um, need to be a part of that process, right? So do you have the capacity? So that's the, the mental capacity.
[00:16:39] Rupa Robbins: Do you have the time? Do you have emotional capacity to manage this device and to manage the, um, the, the giving of that device to your child?
[00:16:51] Leah Clionsky: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like it's so important to think about like what your own capacity is in those moments. And the other thing that you and I were talking about before too is how you present it is important. Like I always encourage parents for all any of these things, phones and cars, to say it's my phone.
[00:17:09] Leah Clionsky: It's my car and I'm going to let you borrow it. I'm going to let you use it because the minute you label something as somebody else's, right, this is your phone. Then that ownership feeling is very, very powerful. And then if you take it away or monitor it, it feels like an invasion versus if you retain the ownership, then you know it's not as satisfying to receive.
[00:17:31] Leah Clionsky: But it also means that they respect that it's yours, truly.
[00:17:35] Rupa Robbins: 100%. And you know, I think that there always have to be conditions, right? So one of the things that I see often is, or I hear often from parents is we gave them the phone and we can't take it back Now. But the, in actuality, you can. It's not gonna be easy. They're not gonna like it. They're gonna protest that.
[00:17:56] Rupa Robbins: But you are still the parent. And if your child is not capable of using the phone in a responsible way, is not learning these skills and is showing that they're not ready, then we can take it back and we can try again at a different time. So I always tell parents that when we're presenting that phone, there are certain conditions.
[00:18:16] Rupa Robbins: So in my house, these conditions will definitely include certain screen-free zones. So that phone will never be present at dinner. It will likely not go into the bedroom at night. Um, and if, you know, if that is, if those conditions are broken, then we will walk back on what, what privileges my children have with, with those devices.
[00:18:37] Rupa Robbins: Um. And so, and the other thing is really talking about behavior and how, and those digital citizenship skills. So the expectation is that our kids, uh, should behave the same way they would behave in person online, right? So there is this. Digital kind of anonymity that comes up because they can hide in so many ways online that they can't in person.
[00:19:02] Rupa Robbins: And so sometimes we see kids trying on different identities, which can be really healthy online, but we also see them trying on different ways of interacting with people and different, um, things that might not be as acceptable in the real world. And we want them to know that we expect them to behave, you know, in a way that.
[00:19:21] Rupa Robbins: If we saw them behaving that way with peers in real life, we would be, we would be happy with and proud of.
[00:19:27] Leah Clionsky: Yeah, I can't tell you how many kids I've seen. Say things, uh, through Snapchat that they would never say in real life, not realize that that is forever. Even though you tell them it's forever,
[00:19:39] Rupa Robbins: Right, right.
[00:19:40] Leah Clionsky: and then have a terrible, terrible consequences, um, for those things either in their relationships or sometimes even legally.
[00:19:49] Leah Clionsky: So it's, it's dangerous.
[00:19:50] Rupa Robbins: And it's serious. It's absolutely very serious. And um, one of the things that I was mentioning to you earlier, Leah, is that I live in Silicon Valley and I, a lot of times when I'm giving these talks at schools or in the community, I'm always very surprised by the fact that the people who are developing these technologies are.
[00:20:11] Rupa Robbins: The are delaying the most, right? They are very adamant that their kids will not have access to devices and will definitely not have access to these apps where, you know, attention is the commodity, is what the app developers are really trying to capture. Or they know kind of more deeply the safety features or the lack thereof, and therefore they are very adamant that their kids won't have access to those things.
[00:20:33] Rupa Robbins: So that's just some food for thought when we're thinking about how to formulate our own philosophy of parenting around, uh, digital devices.
[00:20:41] Leah Clionsky: Yeah, that's really interesting to think about that the people who are actually developing them, the people who understand these things the best, are the most concerned about their own children having access and. If you're worried that you're overreacting or being uncool, maybe this is reassurance to you as a parent that it's okay to take this very seriously.
[00:21:02] Leah Clionsky: You know, we don't always have to be cool to our kids
[00:21:05] Rupa Robbins: Right, right. And you know, that said, I think that there's a balance. There's always a balance and, um. And where I see, you know, where I hope to be as a parent when my kids are older and where I'm kind of counseling families to be, is kind of in that middle, middle area where it's not, absolutely not never.
[00:21:25] Rupa Robbins: And it's not here, take this device and it's yours. Do whatever you want with it. But it's in that middle ground where we are. We are really mentoring and coaching and having open, honest conversations, and we're approaching with curiosity. And we're not being judgemental of our kids, but we're really understanding that they're learning all of these tools that are going to be foundational for the rest of their lives.
[00:21:47] Rupa Robbins: And we get to kind of walk alongside them and help shape the way that they navigate this balance and the way that they interact, uh, both in person and digitally.
[00:21:59] Leah Clionsky: Well, Rupa, I think that is such a wonderful general message to send about balance. I think that's one of our hardest things as humans and as parents for sure. And I'm so, so grateful that you came on to talk about this topic. How can parents find you? They're going to want to know about tech positive parenting.
[00:22:18] Leah Clionsky: What's the best way? For everyone to get access to. Your knowledge has it even as it changes over time.
[00:22:24] Rupa Robbins: Yes, so they can find me on Instagram at Tech Positive Parenting. I have a Substack, which is also called Tech Positive Parenting, so it's tech positive parenting.substack.com where I write a little bit, uh, longer form. And later this year I will be putting out a course for parents and um, and. Their children, teen, you know, young preteens or teenagers to be taking together when that first phone, when it's time for that first phone.
[00:22:51] Rupa Robbins: So it will have a parent section and then it will have a parent and child section. So it will have the conversations that it would be helpful for you to have and um, and just a lot of information for you to walk through together as you learn in this process together.
[00:23:05] Leah Clionsky: I absolutely love that. So their links to all of those things will be on the show notes. You know, thank you so much for coming on and sharing your knowledge. I appreciate. You so much.
[00:23:14] Rupa Robbins: Yeah, absolutely. This was so fun. Thank you for having me.